20 replies to this topic

[naterist]

So i havent played on the energy test server, but i had this idea.

What if big weapons fired in unison could knock over a small mech. It would give assaults an option if their alone and caught by a pack of lights. You could knock one down, and use that time to regen energy and do smaller strikes while the light is getting up, or you can use the time bought to regroup with your team. And it wont be perfect because only big weapons like ac20s and gauss rifles should be able to do it, so its limited in how many times you can fire it, so that one alpha really counts.

Edited by naterist, 05 September 2016 - 09:58 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

It would rely on them fixing knock downs. Apparently it was pretty buggy, and they've not gotten around to working on it for years.

[naterist]

I remember mw4 did it pretty well i think. Maye im thinking of mechassault.

[kesmai]

Yeah!
Lights dominate the Game.
Every match i see at least 10 of them.
They murder everyone. All of the time.
So please Nerf them.
Sorry op, but I do not think lights need a knockdown Nerf.

[naterist]

It wouldnt be much of a nerf, but something that could give lone assaults a fighting chance. Ideally, only a lucky, direct, alpha strike from an assault or very well armed heavy mech would be capable of doing it to the very smallest (and by logic, fastest) light mechs. In a game that is a neverending rock paper scissors with laserbeams, this isnt a far-fetched feature, and could be a potential block to the cheetah rush strategy that is getting more and more popular in games ive played in FW. Maybe if an alpha had more effect, it would force people to vary when they drop what. Mixing your lights with your assaults and heavies may become a more normal thing. And itll give an alternative to the streakcrow and the streatdog, so we dont see 12 of them on schedule every third push of a game.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

naterist, on 28 September 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

It wouldnt be much of a nerf, but something that could give lone assaults a fighting chance. Ideally, only a lucky, direct, alpha strike from an assault or very well armed heavy mech would be capable of doing it to the very smallest (and by logic, fastest) light mechs. In a game that is a neverending rock paper scissors with laserbeams, this isnt a far-fetched feature, and could be a potential block to the cheetah rush strategy that is getting more and more popular in games ive played in FW. Maybe if an alpha had more effect, it would force people to vary when they drop what. Mixing your lights with your assaults and heavies may become a more normal thing. And itll give an alternative to the streakcrow and the streatdog, so we dont see 12 of them on schedule every third push of a game.

If you would be able to alphastrike a running light'mech you would not need to demand a knockdown feature.

That said, Paul got bullied by a bunch of dragons once, that's why we can't have knockdown anymore.

[naterist]

I just think it would be cool for an atlas to knock a locust off its feet. Lets face it, an atlas alpha striking a lucust means that locust is a quarter second from death anyways, so why not. It would be true to the lore which says a mech can fall over, and it would look sweet, feel good, and make those light mechs rethink a sprint near an enemy assault lance.

[Pjwned]

No, just stop being bad if you're getting picked off by lights in your assault mech.

Collision damage on the other hand would be fine, as in real collision damage that doesn't just scrape some paint off.

[MrVei]

we should be able to run each other over to some deg, 100 tons vs 20 tons, 100 tons should be able to step on the 20 ton..

[naterist]

Yes, light mechs shouldnt=unmovable obect for an atlas.

[Davers]

naterist, on 01 October 2016 - 01:20 AM, said:

Yes, light mechs shouldnt=unmovable obect for an atlas.

Because everyone knows a hundred pound person just casually kicks 35 pound rocks out of his path...

[FupDup]

Davers, on 01 October 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

Because everyone knows a hundred pound person just casually kicks 35 pound rocks out of his path...

Before one of my cats died, I could trip over him while he was standing still...He was about 16-17 pounds and I think I was around ~170 or so at that time.

[Sereglach]

FupDup, on 01 October 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

Before one of my cats died, I could trip over him while he was standing still...He was about 16-17 pounds and I think I was around ~170 or so at that time.

My two cats are 11 and 15 pounds and they attempt to assassinate . . . err . . . easily trip me up all the time; and I'm a reasonably stout 240lbs and could easily leg press 500lbs + before I had to have a knee rebuilt (could still do it, but don't want to risk another blown-out knee). Physics . . .

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Speaking of physics, as far as the OP is concerned, if they were to implement knockdowns it'd need to be more properly physics based . . . meaning Mass * Velocity = Force. If two mechs collide (solid collisions, not just clipping) then you'd calculate the Force of each mech and then determine if the impacts result in a knockdown or not (PGI would need to decide on the formulas ,there). However, consider that a 100 ton Assault will often be moving below 50kph (turning vectors, inclines, etc. all diminish the actual speed you're moving) while a 20 ton Light will often be moving at speeds above 160kph.

So, for an MWO example, lets say an Atlas is moving at 50kph and hits a Locust moving at 165kph.
50kph = ~46 feet per second
46 fps * 100 tons = 4600 ft/tons of force

165kph = ~152 feet per second
152 fps * 20 tons = 3040 ft/tons of force

Thusly, even at the most extreme end of the equation, the 100 ton Assault overcomes the force of a 20 ton Locust, but not by a massive margin . . . and certainly not insurmountable. Replace the Locust with a Commando (which has more tonnage and goes slightly faster) or a WLF-1 Wolfhound or Jenner IIC, and the lights impact with this much force.

167kph = ~153 feet per second
153 fps * 25 tons = 3825 ft/tons of force

156.7kph = ~143 feet per second
143 fps * 35 tons = 5005 ft/tons of force

A 100 ton assault can still withstand the Commando at TOP speed, but not a Wolfhound or Jenner IIC. Even a 80 ton assault at the same speed as the 100 tonner is laid out flat by just a Commando:

46 fps * 80 tons = 3680 ft/tons of force

See where this is going, yet? You want knockdowns because you think that, if done "properly" that any assault should just bowl over a light. Wrong. Any more physics based knockdown system (which PGI would need to do to do it right) results in lights being really dangerous ramming machines.

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After all, no surprise it's the same way in TT. Little anecdote here, for emphasis of the munchkin-y abuse it can create: So back in the day, during one tabletop session, one player brought a force that consisted of a whole boatload of Flea mechs at a surprisingly low BV . . . they only had a small laser in each CT, and the biggest engine with MASC and Superchargers that he could fit in each of them. They had like 40 hexes of movement with both systems engaged on a full sprint; and the game was taking place on a very large area that allowed those levels of movement.

They were all ramming machines. In fact they were such horrific ramming machines that on impact they were doing things like shearing Atlas legs completely off.

Now, we can't do anything like that in MWO (at least not yet, or in the foreseeable future). However, in MWO there are instances like the Dragon, which is at an unusual balance of mass and speed to create a ramming monster. There's a reason that it was the "bowling ball" of closed beta and that videos like the one of Paul getting bullied by the Goons exist. There's also the situations listed above.

That is the whole reason why knockdowns don't exist in MWO and really won't exist in the game. Don't get me wrong, collisions should be fixed to prevent the rubber-banding madness that still sometimes occurs and proper collision damage, but knockdowns via ramming probably shouldn't be brought back.

EDIT: For kicks and giggles . . . to show the Dragon's unique position . . .
104.5kph = ~96 feet per second
96 fps * 60 tons = 5760 ft/tons of force
Yeah . . . not much standing against that ramming beast . . . except Quickdraws because they're the same tonnage and same engine cap.

Edited by Sereglach, 01 October 2016 - 06:47 PM.

[naterist]

Your using a lot of physics but there are so many other factors in a physics equation like that. For starters, theres the gyro, and the pilots neural connection. Thats the reason a light breeze doesnt knock over a locust running perpandicular too it.

Tl;dr your physics equations are incomplete.

Thats why, scientifically, a siple bigger mech bowls over little mechs every time if implemented. Unless its an tall skinny mech like the grasshopper, but im not talking about mechs knockin down other mechs, im talking about ac20s and guass slugs that go almost the speed of light or something of that similar speed, knocking down topheavy, tiny mechs on skinny legs.

[vocifer]

Sereglach, on 01 October 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

Thusly, even at the most extreme end of the equation, the 100 ton Assault overcomes the force of a 20 ton Locust, but not by a massive margin . . . and certainly not insurmountable.

Your physics suck because you forgot about Newtons second law.
Locust is going to feel 5 times more force of impact than a DWF.

A change of speed for Locust is determined:

dV=(V_l+V_d)*m_d/(m_l+m_d)=215*5/6=179,1(7)

179,1 > 165 ------ dV > V_l

This means the Locust will have a -14.1 speed after collision. It's a negative speed which is a knockdown for him.
A Direwolf will have the same 14.1 speed but it's positive for him so he doesn't fall on back (though he may fall forwards).

http://hyperphysics....ase/truckc.html
http://hyperphysics....ase/inecol.html

Edited by vocifer, 03 October 2016 - 05:40 AM.

[vocifer]

Speaking on topic, same Second Law applies to it.

You have a projectile with 140kg mass and 650m/s velocity. And then you have a Locust with 20,000kg mass and 50m/s velocity, at which it can knock down trees!

Also, the recoil force is always bigger then the impact force (hello Urbie and Hollander).

[Sereglach]

vocifer, on 03 October 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

*snip*

You say it sucks, but it's quick and simple; and it's highly likely the kinds of physics collisions that PGI would use for knockdowns; and it's the same basic kind of physics that was done for TT knockdown rules. Quick, dirty, and simple.

It doesn't matter whether it sucks or not. What matters is what would PGI implement and how it'd function in game. I gave a quick synopsis of how PGI would implement it (which there's already a past record of) and how it'd end up in game. That's it . . . that's all that matters.

Any physics model that PGI uses isn't going to be in-depth Newtonian physics . . . it's going to be quick and dirty sci-fi "Handwavium" physics, which I already demonstrated and showed the precedent for. They just don't have the manpower and skillsets to do otherwise. If you want in-depth Newtonian physics then you better get up to Vancouver, prove you have the necessary degrees, join PGI as a physics programmer, and get cranking . . . because that's the only way it's going to happen.

Edited by Sereglach, 03 October 2016 - 07:23 AM.

[vocifer]

That's why we have teleporting mechs instead. Because m₁/(m₁+m₂) is so f*ng hard co calculate.

[naterist]

I actually am thinking about changing my degree to computer science, and ive really been thinking about maybe ill try and take that route, canada sounds nice. And id be right next to the servers in my off time, id have... like... 1 ping.

[Sereglach]

vocifer, on 03 October 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

That's why we have teleporting mechs instead. Because m₁/(m₁+m₂) is so f*ng hard co calculate.

You're forgetting multiple things here, and it applies with both weapon knockdowns as well as mech on mech knockdowns. It's not just a matter of the calculations themselves. It's a matter of the number of calculations, the calls on the servers, the inefficiency with which certain things would happen, delays between server authoritative and client-side recognition, and the extra load it'd dump into server calculations. It'd cause everything to happen slower and create more problems for PGI to manage.

Every projectile would need to have it's mass added and constant force calculated, every mech and collision capable object would need to have their dynamic force, vectors, and masses thrown into constant calculations. A physics model to make "proper" collisions happen would be extremely taxing on the servers.

Again, if you've got all the magic answers, I'm sure PGI would be interested in hiring.

naterist, on 03 October 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

I actually am thinking about changing my degree to computer science, and ive really been thinking about maybe ill try and take that route, canada sounds nice. And id be right next to the servers in my off time, id have... like... 1 ping.

You wouldn't be the first player-turned-employee. Awesome for you if you can make it happen; and I give you props.

However, sorry to burst your bubble on dreams of non-existent ping, but I think the NA Live servers are hosted in the Chicago area to provide better overall ping to anywhere in the NA region.